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Sharia finds its way into Government thinking http://qttr.at/aie? !secular vigilance
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@kuro One of many politicians who metaphoricall suck Saudi cock.
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@kuro funny how only Muslims get interest free loans.
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@inscius You might even consider Saudi money resources to influence the background. Some politicians are just sort of corrupt 'businessmen'.
drak gefällt das. -
“the schemes will be open to non-Muslims and anyone taking the loans out will repay the same amount as other borrowers” — thanks to islam and the secular state which has to treat all religions the same, all students will get interest-free loans.
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@drak Why do politicians involve "Islam" in the first place if it so good?
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@kuro Ofc. They also finance imams around the world. But they do not allow any other religion in their own country. It is just slime imho.
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@inscius the 'legal limbo' or twilight zone of Saudi financed hate preachers. real slimy!
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@inscius Likely because Islam forbids interest, but the banks want interest. Muslims are an interest group with special ethics.
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@inscius You could just as well ask why they involve human-rights groups when they forbid torture.
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@drak You lost me there.
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@inscius Muslims believe (as a big group) that interest-rates are wrong. human-right-groups believe that torture is wrong. I do not see why religion should be special here.
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@inscius I see religious people as just an interest group - no more special than any other interest group.
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@inscius If we had millions of nonreligious people who simply refuse to take a loan with interest (but would take a loan with other special conditions), then I guess something similar would happen.
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@drak (my late reply) but politicians and bureaucrats may see them as special.
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@drak That could be. Or avoid loaning as far as possible.
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@inscius politicians may see religious people as special, but the treatment described in the linked article does not fit that, I think.
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@drak Cameron motivates this by religion, basically. The non-Muslims may join the Islamic type of finance.
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he calls the rules “the religions strict rules”, which is right insofar, that the people follow the rules because of their religion. I do not see this as Cameron motivated by religion, but rather Cameron catering to people who are motivated by religion (that’s a big difference: With this, he could act the same when they are motivated by something else).
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@drak I agree he is not motivated by religion. But he is sucking up to certain forms and representatives of it. Non-secular govt imo
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@inscius that’s what I tried to refute by saying that they are treated just like any other big interest group. He’d likely suck up to any group with similarly big pockets which the banks could empty (to some degree).
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@drak Capitalist interests also come with ideology, but I still think he is going against the idea of a secular state.
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@inscius if he were to treat a similarly-big but non-religious group with similarly big pockets differently, then I’d agree. Just because people call their ideology “religion” it does not become special.
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@drak But ideologies with supernatural components (some of them) are treated differently. E.g. A police may wear a turban but not a top hat.
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Are there people who believe that they *have to* wear a top hat? Can you forbid police to wear wedding-rings?
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@drak I do not understand why believing something gives a right? And only some beliefs are approved of by the government.
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@drak I think there are quite a few jobs where rings are not allowed.
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@inscius it’s not that believing gives a “right”. Rather the wishes of people should be tolerated if there aren’t strong reasons against that. And if some people will not work for the police when they are not allowed to wear a turban, but the state would benefit from having some of this group work for the police, then the state should let them have their wish. If all academics where to refuse to go outside without top hats, then the police would likely allow wearing a top hat (just to get some academics into police).
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@drak Those academics would be idiots. And why should the police have different groups in it?
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@inscius the police needs to represent the different groups in society, so police officers can understand the people they work for
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@inscius and why should people who want to live their style be idiots? Is there nothing you would refuse to do for a job?
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@drak Groups are individuals that interact. I guess you mean categories of people?
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@drak And I do not think individuals are mainly products off "groups".
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@drak If academics demand that they must wear top hats in order to work, yes then they are idiots. Period.
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@drak Yes. I wouldn't kill, rape, injure, betray etc people for a job. My hairdo or my headgear is not near those serious things, sorry.
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@drak I recommend a great novel about inner police mentalities: Dominique Manotti: Bien connu des services de police Dt: Einschlägig bekannt
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@inscius would you undress down to a kilt (and only a kilt) for a job?
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@drak No. Why? Problem is those that refer to their beliefs do not want to "dress down" at all.
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@drak I'll just look for another jobs
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@inscius They do dress down, a lot. But there is a limit how far they go. Just as for you. Why is your limit better than theirs?
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@drak Liegt auf der Hand: genau dieser Titel. Die dt. Übersetzung ist nicht übel, hab's überprüft mit dem Original.
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@drak Why do ppl get to add to uniforms for religious/cultural reasons but not for political reasons?
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@drak a police with turban is ok, but not with a red star on is cap.
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@drak Religious/cultural beliefs are somehow better than political/non-religious beliefs. that is my point.
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@drak "I can't have these clothes because of my religion!" "Ok!"
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@drak I can't have these clothes because I am a communist!" (or whatever). "Go fuck yourself"
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@drak Why should belief in certain supernaturals have special acceptance?
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@drak If a scientologist applied for a job at the police and said he had to have certain badges on him, the would say "no"!
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@drak Why is Jehova, Allah (pick you patriarchal god of choice" so bloody correct?
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@drak I am tired of cultural relativism that values certain beliefs better than other (not really relativism)
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@drak Well that doesnt explain why ppl from one day needs a turman, yarmulke etc. They rather dress up :p
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@inscius I think because religion and culture are considered to be outside the political system. Where that is true, I agree with different treatment. Where it is not true (because members of a religion have to vote a certain way), I think religious emblems should be treated at political statements.
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@inscius note: I have no god of choice. I think religious belief just a fancy which is sadly indoctrinated into people from early age.
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@drak I see religion as political ideologies with supernatural components. I dont get it why they, e-g- in regard to uniform, should have ..
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@drak ... special treatment. After all, it is called "uniform".
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@inscius when I look at the christian people I know, I have a hard time finding any shared political goal. From left-wing to right-wing and all in-between - even people who think that religion should be a purely private matter (which actually goes against the missionary-request in their book, but wanting to wear a cross and living by that old book are two very different things nowadays).
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@drak so religion isnt ideology?
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@drak I do think they all have a political ideolgy that involves "the will of god" in some way
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@inscius I think they think that their way is “good for others”, but if you ask them about the rules, those are not…
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@inscius At least christian religion can be used as excuse for any ideology, so it has no political meaning… (aside from real power structures like the church)
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@inscius there are even christians who say “help yourself, then god helps you” — which means: For all practical matters there is no god.
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@drak That I agree with.
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@drak any religion can be used for excuses and oppression.
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@inscius Actually I think our views aren’t that different. But it’s the slight differences which bring the worst disagreements ☺ http://sn.1w6.org/url/968
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@drak I do think we agree on some things. But as I understand, you would think ethnicity is a plus when employing e.g. a police?
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@drak That I disagree with to 100%
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@inscius I think it is a plus to have a similar distribution of ethnicity in police as in society.
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@drak I think knowledge of different languages, cultures, subcultures etc is valuable.
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@inscius I think just knowledge is not enough to really understand a culture. Coming from that culture is much different from knowing it.
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@drak So.. why should civil servants understand every culture that comes their way?
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@drak Inside understanding can in practice mean to approve of acts that are not really compatible with law (e.g. wife or child beating)
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@inscius or corruption or whatelse. Our society isn’t free from accepted lawbreaking. Still police officers uphold the law.
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@inscius I did not say they should understand every culture. They should understand the biggest groups in the region.
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@drak Isn't that like saying only bankers really understand banks?
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@drak so why are bigger minorities more important? isnt that rather contradictory?
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@inscius it is like saying that if you assemble a group to assess banks, your group should contain at least one banker.
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@inscius let’s turn this on its head: If all police officers where chinese immigrants, would you feel safe? That’s why local cultures need to be represented in police.
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@drak No, banks are run by 100% bankers. So they would then be 100% of the investigative force too.
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@drak Police are to be non-dicriminatory and follow the law, and they should be kep in check. Their color is irrelevant.
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@drak If I moved to another country and demanded "Swedish" services and civil servants, they would say politely "no" or laugh at me. Rightly
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@drak "local cultures need to be represented in police." Maybe a nicer face but not more. Don't forget : police is hierarchy. Bosses matter!
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@inscius Canada has had hundreds of years of successive waves of immigrants— beginning with pasty-faced European settlers
drak gefällt das. -
It depends what you want your police to be— a paramilitary force with an “us vs. them” mentality? Doesn’t matter who they are…
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@laurelrusswurm The native inhabitants also moved into each other territories. so I guess it didnt start with the whites?
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@laurelrusswurm And I do not see the relevance anyway
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@inscius the people affected by how banks are run are not only bankers. Please don’t make my statements stronger than I make them.
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@drak But you seem to be after inside understanding, not all people affected by something?
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@inscius I am after enabling police to better support the whole society. Inside understanding helps - as does an “outside” viewpoint, so they need both.
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@drak I see "inside" understanding as something problematic. But this discussion is just going nowhere. I opt out now :)
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@kuro sure. The backgrounds of police-bosses should be representative of society, too.
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