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12 reasons to boycott #systemd: http://boycottsystemd.org/ !gnu !fs !libre !debian !gentoo #fedora #ubuntu
Monday, 22-Sep-14 07:32:42 UTC von web- inscius, ghostdancer und clacke gefällt das.
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@mcscx If the #debian folks do not break the promises made in the discussion about init systems, then yes wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/
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@drak good to know (at least some hope).I'd prefer a stable & simple system. @mk did have some systemd-related problems on her recent update
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@pztrn sure Gentoo is nice, but I maintain some Debian servers & changing to either systemd / Gentoo will need #time etc.
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I call #gentoo the baseball of distros. Plenty of time to read & converse between the action.
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@mcscx I have managed around it by using same CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS and distcc, so even my virtual machines are compiling everything fast :)
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I've been using (almost solely) Debian for ~17 yrs but I might change distro if Debian made systemd mandatory and I dont like it.
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@mcscx I am still yo-yo-ing between liking systemd and not liking it. So, I'm giving it time. I do like Debian a lot...
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@mcscx the thing is, if (once) it works properly, it's invisible and doesn't get in the way. What counts for me most is availability of recent versions of graphics and related software, and the desktop: I can't stand Gnome (especially…
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@mk from @drak's link I seem to understand systemd involves binary files → bad, while systemv consists of simple scripts & text files→good
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@mk look at Windows: Startup is complicated,no-one knows what's happening during startup. If it fails you soon have to install from scratch
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@mk I want a system I can debug, should it fail. It's not enough to me if it "usually works", like windows
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@dragnucs if a systemv startup is failing I can comment out lines in scripts, disable scripts (by renaming), etc. It's "intuitive" for me.
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drak
Free, Libre, and Open Source Software
, GNU's Not Unix
, Libre
, Gentoo Linux™
, mcscx
, pztrn
, mk
@franko @mk @mcscx @pztrn I think the main reasons why debian switched to systemd are raw programmer hours (paid redhat work) and very active advocacy (there’s a youtube video where the main systemd developer attacks a critical speaker with the full arsenal of rhetoric tactics).
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@franko I think any init system by its nature is scary - you not only have to start (and stop, restart, reload etc.) a lot of services, but some of those services can be dependant on each other, and before you know it, you end up with…
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@franko so why does "everyone" go for systemd? My guess is that starting afresh is seen as an opportunity to get rid of the old cobwebs of interrelated processes, possibly forgetting that the init system itself cannot solve the interr…
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@mk #OpenRC offers roughly the same features as #systemd, but with simple enhancements to init scripts instead of NIH NIH. So it’s possible to do this right - but #systemd does not even try. See https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc#How_OpenRC_works:_Example_runscript
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@drak loading that page the first I see is a script using depend() - interesting, but can such a mechanism prevent circular dependencies? I think not. Again: it's the services themselves that need to be taken into account, and possibl…
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@drak I also read on that page: "The transition should be very easy if we decide to get rid of the old sysv-rc package. Just have sysv-rc become a transition package which depends on OpenRC, and let everyone upgrade." Which clearly de…
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you cannot *prevent* circular dependencies: If A needs B needs A, the system can’t start. You can just try to split up stuff.
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@drak ha! also on that page I read: "recently, some dependency change in the sysvinit source package made the situation more complicated: ifupdown and openssh-server depends on a version of sysv-rc, which makes it impossible to instal…
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@drak. *exactly* - you need to split up things, possibly in layers, so that one layer can be in place before the layer on top can load. But the init system cannot do that - only a redesign of the services themselves (and that is way harder than creating just a new init system)
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@mk That sounds as if some backstabbing happened using ifupdown¹ and openssh-server to hurt openrc. ¹: Anthony Towns was Release Engineer at Red Hat.
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@mcscx the technical committee expects that maintiners support the other init systems too. See http://www.debian.org/devel/tech-ctte
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@drak there are still things I don't understand ;-) what I also don't understand is applications* having a direct dependency on systemd. But I'm not really going to dive in in an effort to understand all this in detail - I've read eno…
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drak gefällt das.
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@larjona I trust !Debian will keep supporting the sysv startup, otherwise there'd be a problem with Debian GNU/kFreeBSD + HURD.
drak gefällt das.
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